Cliff, that's Dan's opinion and we should all respect that. Questioning ones opinion will only lead to further lengthy discussions for which there is no end or resolution.

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This is a funny thread.

Did the Yugo dealer try to scare you away? No. Maybe he truly felt that the car was a good car. That doesn't matter if you were smart enough to take a hard look at the car before making the big mistake of buying one.

Think about all of the houses and vehicles that you were hot to get rid of and tell me that you spent a lot of effort to point out all of the flaws. Sure you did!

Think about the last time that you found the ultimate deal at the 356 flea market. You did pay the guy the extra $1000 didn't you?

The most reputable dealers will present the car honestly and answer all questions honestly. They will never do poor quality repairs to cover up a costly problem. He will try to determine what the buyer expects and what use the car will get and try not to do a deal where the car is going to make the buyer into an enemy.

All dealers want to buy cars for peanuts and sell them for big piles of gold. They are in a constant battle with "market forces" that keep them from being the robber barons that they would like to be.

Buyers and sellers are adversaries that can only be satisfied when each is equally dissatisfied. Buyer beware! Seller beware!

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Cliff Murray

 

'55 Cabriolet Racer

'57 Speedster

'59 Sunroof

'63 Coupe Pushrod GS 2133

'67 911 S

My apoligies. I did not understand.

_________________

Cliff Murray

 

'55 Cabriolet Racer

'57 Speedster

'59 Sunroof

'63 Coupe Pushrod GS 2133

'67 911 S

Jim and Charlie,

YES! You are CORRECT, and your longevity in the business shows that you both do have your customer's best interests in mind. I would never disagree with you on this, but then your definition of the working for the customer's best interests is not always the guiding philosophy of others. That is the point that I was trying to make. You two and many others here symbolize that operating philosophy.

However, someone who "flips" 356s for a quick profit evidences to me that they are in it for the $$$ and not necessarily for the best interests of their customers.

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"Any reputable dealer/business person better have his customer's interests in mind or he won't last for very long."
Yes, which means any successful business minds it own interest by minding the customers' interests. Ignoring either is fatal, and that's the reason it's not easy.

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CJ,
I agree with several of the items in your post, but I have to chuckle a little at myself because I have spent a lot of time pointing out flaws in a car I was selling. In fact I once made a 55 year old cash buyer call his mother before I would sell him a rusted car!
When my 83 year old neighbor offered me his wifes car at a his dealers trade in price, which a car dealer friend confirmed was way under wholesale, I did pay him $1000 more than he was asking (he was delighted and plowed my driveway this winter).
And finally, I agree a little haggling is good for the sole, but if it leaves both sides dissatisfied, whats the fun in that? These cars are a hobby for me, so why do something if it leaves you dissatisfied?
Dan

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"I never leave Ann Arbor. The real world is too hard to face."

Hi Dan
I hesitate to say more but I can't help myself. Maybe we are really talking about various degrees of how one conducts oneself. I can't address your situation of the 55 year old that needed a note from mommy. As for your neighbor, I once made the mistake of buying a Velocette Thruxton from my, still, next door neighbor, in 1989, and that was not a good Idea. I understand why you paid the guy next door more than he wanted but did you pay him retail? If the car was for your use you should pay retail in order to be fair. When I say that both sides should be equally dissatisfied I do not mean that either side must be dissatisfied. It is possible for everyone to be happy but most of the time the seller had hoped for more and wonders if the next prospect would have paid more and likewise the buyer thinks they may have been able to get a better deal. I have seen some dealers that offer "buyer's remorse" or "seller's remorse" counseling. That is a good dealer.

If I were trying to sell a 356 and Gullwing wanted to buy it I would take his money even if he was a annoying pain in the ass. I have never bought a 356 from a dealer because I am just too cheap. Oddly enough, Gullwing does have for sale two Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Speciale coupes. I have always wanted one but have not called them for a variety of reasons the main of which is that they are projects. OK, I admit it's because I am cheap. You have to give them credit for being able to offer two of these rare cars for sale. That's what a dealer does is to step up with cash and put together a group of desirable cars for the buyer that would not know where to find the car otherwise.

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Cliff Murray

 

'55 Cabriolet Racer

'57 Speedster

'59 Sunroof

'63 Coupe Pushrod GS 2133

'67 911 S

Dan, you let your 83 year old neighbor plow your driveway?

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Only after his snow shovel broke.

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I have been reading this thread and I'm a bit surprised at some of the responses.

I recently sold our 2002 Jeep and I think the situation I encountered might make my point.

My 2002 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited was tired, had a leaking heater core ( $1200 repair in a Jeep), the power steering was beginning to act funny and the drivers side door power lock sometimes didn't work. The interior and exterior looked real good. Car never in a wreck. 174,000 miles on it. I offered the car at $2999 with the problems disclosed or $4650 with the problems fixed by a good repair shop. Car sold in an hour for $2999. I was happy -- I thought. I had a Bill of Sale for an "as is, where is, problems disclosed" transaction and I turned in all the paperwork into the DMV.

Two weeks later I find out the buyer of our car sold the car the next week for $6795. The odometer was rolled back to 94,000 miles, none of the problems were fixed or disclosed. As the seller, my buyer used a fake name -- a different fake name from the fake name he used when he purchased the car. The "new owner" contacted me because my name was still on the title -- I was the "Sick Uncle" they were selling the car for in this scam.

Results:

1) I got the money I wanted for the car -- I was happy and remain happy about the $$$ part of the transaction.
2) Would I sell to this guy again -- NO!
3) The buyer lied to me about his intentions of fixing the car and using it as a low cost go to the mountains vehicle. He didn't use his real name. He had a fake ID.
4) He then lied to the new buyer, he rolled back the mileage, he didn't disclose any of the problems he knew about --- he also didn't fix any of them.
5) Was the "new owner" who paid $6795 for the car stupid ?? Maybe not as stupid as it may at first appear. The car looks like a 94,000 mile car -- especially after that " value added " detail work was completed. He was lied to in every way possible. He didn't protect himself well with a good inspection. He got himself screwed. He lost about $3-5k in this transaction considering what he paid for the car and then the repairs. And he still has a 174,000 mile car that will probably have some component fail again soon.

My points --

1) If the buyer --- dealer or not --- uses shady tactics when buying the car, that buyer is likely to turn around and do it again to the person he sells the car to.

2) If when we view a buyer that in repeated transactions pushes to buy at the lowest price and doesn't seem too concerned about problems he hears about -- other than saying the price should be lower because of those problems --- I would begin to become suspicious. If then as the selling dealer he seems to add marginal value to the transaction and finally fails to disclose problems / information to the next buyer that would influence the value of the car, I don't think we have a dealer we should recommend --- especially as members of a car club where there is a lot of buying and selling going on.

3) I don't think it matters much that the original seller is happy. The original seller may not be privy to how much fraud and wealth destruction goes on down the road with the next buyer.

4) If we see questionable tactics on either side of the sale, there is probably more there than what we are able to see.

Having read this thread, I would never sell to or buy from this dealer. Too many ??? It's not about spending too much money, its about spending too much money when the seller is doing everything possible to make sure you don't have the information needed to make an informed decision. I realize that having a 356 expert inspect the vehicle will help avoid these problems. I'm not against Buy Low -- Sell High. I'm against sellers using less than ethical methods to achieve the result.

Best to All!

John Linden
alamo, CA
63 Cab

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John Linden
Alamo, CA
63 Cab

Thank you John, that was one of the points that I was trying to get across--you said it much better than I did.

There is an honorable way and then there are other ways...

Regards,

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Sebastian Gaeta
Registry #8339
'65 C coupe
'64 C cab

John- That guy is a criminal. I hope that the situation was reported to the police as should all frauds. In Pa when you sell a car it is imperative that you go to a licensed DOT notary to endorse the title over to the new owner who must provide two forms of ID including a picture ID. This protects the seller from what the buyer might do with the car and it protects the buyer by proving ownership. The seller and buyer must sign a sworn statement as to the actual mileage under penalty of law. Classics are exempt. If you are a dealer and break the rules you lose your license. No matter who you are you have extremely serious legal problems in PA doing what that guy did. I bought my Caterham in CA and I think all the seller did was to tear off a section of the title with my info on it and mail it in to Sacramento. Sales tax is what the state really cares about so how does CA let a car be sold to someone without getting a title in his name? If he is a dealer he can buy it without paying sales tax but not a private person. I assume a fake ID would not work for a dealer? In PA once a private name has been endorsed onto the back of the title the vehicle can not be sold again until the tax is paid and a new title is issued. How did he sell a car with your name and his "name" on the title?

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Cliff Murray

 

'55 Cabriolet Racer

'57 Speedster

'59 Sunroof

'63 Coupe Pushrod GS 2133

'67 911 S

.

The above is fraud.

Someone offering a price that is freely accepted is not.

_________________

Cliff Murray

 

'55 Cabriolet Racer

'57 Speedster

'59 Sunroof

'63 Coupe Pushrod GS 2133

'67 911 S

As a dealer in our 33rd of business I read this post with interest, but was not going to respond, but now feel I have to set the record straight. We started in 1978 as 'Gullwing Service Company', doing restoration on MB's of the '50's. As business grew, and we took on other European makes, we changed the name to 'Paul Russell & Co' in 1990. To his credit,
Peter Kumar called me, and asked if we minded if he called his company 'Gullwing Motor Cars'.
I didn't, and have sold Peter many cars over the years that did not meet our quality standards. The transactions were always fast, and professional.

Any dealer who has only his own interests at heart will not be in business for long. We pride ourselves on having many repeat customers, who feel the added value is that we stand behind what we sell, unlike almost all private party sales. That pays off in the long run.
Having said that, I encourage everyone to have a PPI done, whether it be a $30k B coupe, or a $1M Ferrari. You would be astounded at the number of people who don't think that is necessary.

Again, all my dealings with Peter have been great, but it's up to the seller to do due diligence.

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